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Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41284 |
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Author: | LarryH [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:28 am ] |
Post subject: | Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
Talking steel string and let's say OM size - No tone bars, no fan bracing, but built with a more structural (stronger/larger/thicker?) bridge plate and 'X' design perhaps? Reinforcing diamonds or ??? for the lower bout top joint to prevent future splitting but no bracing. Thicker top but wondered if there's any builds out there that have ignored the lower bout bracing and succeeded. |
Author: | Colin North [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:54 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
Not personally, but - http://www.brunner-guitars.com/?page_id=387 |
Author: | Josh H [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:08 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
You may want to check out Kevin Ryan's Acoustic Parallel Plate - http://www.ryanguitars.com/Innovations/KRG-Innovations-APP.html The lower bout still needs some reinforcement, but that can be achieved a variety of ways as you suggest. Josh |
Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
Josh H wrote: You may want to check out Kevin Ryan's Acoustic Parallel Plate - http://www.ryanguitars.com/Innovations/KRG-Innovations-APP.html The lower bout still needs some reinforcement, but that can be achieved a variety of ways as you suggest. Josh Thanks for posting that, I was just having the same thoughts as the OP as I am building an OM and I'm wondering if I really need both tone bars. |
Author: | LarryH [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
As always this forum is an amazing source of information. I'm experimenting with a curved bridge plate with matching curved PMTE (Proulx Magic Tone Enhancer) that seems very, very strong and should, in my mind, add a lot of resistance to any lift behind the bridge and I just got to thinking that if that area were strong enough the lower bout braces would not serve much purpose. Further thinking makes me wonder what kind of structural help lower bout braces add any way? Fan braces I can clearly see the benefit - tone bars? Always wondered. |
Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
LarryH wrote: As always this forum is an amazing source of information. I'm experimenting with a curved bridge plate with matching curved PMTE (Proulx Magic Tone Enhancer) that seems very, very strong and should, in my mind, add a lot of resistance to any lift behind the bridge and I just got to thinking that if that area were strong enough the lower bout braces would not serve much purpose. Further thinking makes me wonder what kind of structural help lower bout braces add any way? Fan braces I can clearly see the benefit - tone bars? Always wondered. To keep the top stiff and inhibit vibration? Structurally that's all I can think of outside of reinforcing the soundboard joint. |
Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
fingerstyle1978 wrote: Josh H wrote: You may want to check out Kevin Ryan's Acoustic Parallel Plate - http://www.ryanguitars.com/Innovations/KRG-Innovations-APP.html The lower bout still needs some reinforcement, but that can be achieved a variety of ways as you suggest. Josh Thanks for posting that, I was just having the same thoughts as the OP as I am building an OM and I'm wondering if I really need both tone bars. My OM style guitars only have one finger and one tone bar. Attachment: 12 fret OM braced 2.jpg
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Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
Thanks Larry I have been leaning towards two finger and one tone bar for mine as well. Looks like that's the way I'll go, especially after seeing yours. |
Author: | DennisK [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:17 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
This is on my to-do list ![]() Mine will probably be 12 fret, so the bridge-to-tail span is shorter. The bridge plate is a good variable to play with in this style. Mine will probably just be a small strip to protect the top from the string ball ends; no stiffening purpose. The thick top itself should be plenty to prevent bellying. But going thinner on the top, and then stiffening the bridge area by means of a large plate, should be good too. I guess mine will be more or less the same stiffness distribution as that anyway, after perimeter thinning. And of course there's the variable of string-height-at-bridge. 1/2" is the generally accepted sweet spot for the usual designs, but I'll probably do .375-.400" on my X-only guitar so I can do lower stiffness. ...dang it, now I want to get started on this thing, but I already have too many other builds I'm procrastinating on ![]() EDIT: Oh, and it definitely wouldn't hurt to include a crack catcher or two. I'll probably just do one going across the lower quadrant, similar to my fan-less nylon string guitar: Attachment: GluingNeck.jpg
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Author: | LarryH [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
fingerstyle1978 wrote: Thanks Larry I have been leaning towards two finger and one tone bar for mine as well. Looks like that's the way I'll go, especially after seeing yours. Proper thanks due guitarwhisperer Joey. |
Author: | LarryH [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
DennisK wrote: This is on my to-do list ![]() Mine will probably be 12 fret, so the bridge-to-tail span is shorter. The bridge plate is a good variable to play with in this style. Mine will probably just be a small strip to protect the top from the string ball ends; no stiffening purpose. The thick top itself should be plenty to prevent bellying. But going thinner on the top, and then stiffening the bridge area by means of a large plate, should be good too. I guess mine will be more or less the same stiffness distribution as that anyway, after perimeter thinning. And of course there's the variable of string-height-at-bridge. 1/2" is the generally accepted sweet spot for the usual designs, but I'll probably do .375-.400" on my X-only guitar so I can do lower stiffness. ...dang it, now I want to get started on this thing, but I already have too many other builds I'm procrastinating on ![]() EDIT: Oh, and it definitely wouldn't hurt to include a crack catcher or two. I'll probably just do one going across the lower quadrant, similar to my fan-less nylon string guitar: Interesting Dennis. I'm thinking there must be a couple of examples out there - maybe even some old time guitars before tone bars were implemented? I'll try something I'm sure on my next OM size. Maybe short scale to start and check string tension/deformation. |
Author: | Ken McKay [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:56 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
I built an OM with no bracing. That was in '95 and I still have it. Long story though because it is sandwich construction and technically more like "contintuous bracing". It rings like a piano. |
Author: | runamuck [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
My guitar teacher, who studied with Somogyi, built a guitar some years ago for a well-known LA studio guitarist. Apparently, even though the guy was really happy with the sound of the guitar, there was a wolf tone and this was a big problem when it came to recording. It was remedied by adding an additional tone bar on the treble side. Evidently tone bars aren't just for structure. |
Author: | Jim Watts [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
Ken McKay wrote: I built an OM with no bracing. That was in '95 and I still have it. Long story though because it is sandwich construction and technically more like "contintuous bracing". It rings like a piano. Ken, is this in a good way and would you do it again? Thanks |
Author: | Kamusur [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
That's a pretty hefty clamp Dennis. Steve |
Author: | Ken McKay [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:30 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
I would advocate it as one method and can testify that it structurally works. As stated though braces help create a voice. My braceless top is similar to a lattice style pattern in that it is a sandwich of skins and light core. A lattice is essentially th same. I have come to prefer a different sound than the brassy and punchy sound of my braceless guitar. So I probably won't be building another. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Ken |
Author: | Ken McKay [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
And the reason that it works is that it is strong and light but not equally so in the usual bracing pattern area of the lower bout. The core tapers in thickness which varies the stiffness. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Ken |
Author: | Ken McKay [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:39 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
A cautionary note though. Braces mitigate seasonal movement of the top which can raise and lower the strings. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Ken |
Author: | truckjohn [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:26 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
Does a ladder braced guitar count? If so - then lots of people have... It was the prominent bracing scheme for most of Europe for a long time.... |
Author: | Jim Watts [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
Thanks Ken. I've thought about that approach for many many years, I had no questions structurally, just concerned about how it would sound. Your post helps me a lot. |
Author: | LarryH [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
Jim Watts wrote: Thanks Ken. I've thought about that approach for many many years, I had no questions structurally, just concerned about how it would sound. Your post helps me a lot. Same here Ken. Hadn't really thought about the sound implications but I'm not a big fan of the old timey (ladder braced?) sound so instead of structural support for the lower bout a system the modifies the tone in a way that's pleasing to one's ears seems pretty smart - hey pretty much like tone bars? |
Author: | LarryH [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
Todd Stock wrote: No bracing? Just go sandwich...pretty decent record on this approach. Minimalist bracing? Martin has built the 15 series, MMV, etc. with flat, single finger per side and a single tone bar right behind the bridge plate for decades...really no significant bracing between the lower legs of the X. Larrivee has a similar, labor-saving tonebar and finger system which is almost identical to the Martin scheme. I've hotrodded a few 15's by adding an additional tonebar between the existing brace and the tail block, which tightens up the bass response (flabby in 15 series dreads), and adding another flat finger on each side. The 000's sound pretty good with just the usual tweaks, although I added a partial TB on one...and ended up taking a good part of it off in tuning, which told me that the Auds and GCs were pretty good without mods...a little looser bass and less focus trebles, but an overall warmer tone that works pretty well for live music even if it sounded wolfy in the studio. Todd, Thanks for the information and first hand experience. I think that without a more thoughtful approach just leaving off the tone bars/lower bout bracing because one can may not create a 'good' sounding guitar. |
Author: | Tom West [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:12 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
In the top brace system, most of the weight is in the top and most of the stiffness is in the braces. Get rid of the braces and the top has to get thicker. This makes the system weigh more for the same stiffness. Responsiveness is generally reverse proportion to the weight. More weight, less responsive. Certainly no free lunch and how you build depends on what you want to get out of the guitar. Smaller guitars can have less bracing, but there is a limit. Just my opinion of course. Tom |
Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
Tom West wrote: In the top brace system, most of the weight is in the top and most of the stiffness is in the braces. Get rid of the braces and the top has to get thicker. This makes the system weigh more for the same stiffness. Responsiveness is generally reverse proportion to the weight. More weight, less responsive. Certainly no free lunch and how you build depends on what you want to get out of the guitar. Smaller guitars can have less bracing, but there is a limit. Just my opinion of course. Tom What got me wanting to use one tone bar and 2 finger braces was my design, it's a bit smaller than most OM's and it just didn't look right with all the bracing. There's not much room in this box at all compared to a dread. I'm going to give it a try, worst comes to worst I'll add another brace. |
Author: | Dave Fifield [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Has Anyone Built With NO Lower Bout Bracing? |
Larry, I am in the throes of experimenting with triple-top sandwich tops with two thin spruce outer plates and a laser-cut thicker center plate. I have one instrument built this way so far, but the sandwich was not quite thick enough - I had to add one cross brace just below the sound hole to stop the top from caving in above the bridge. I have a second instrument nearly finished that has a thicker sandwich that shouldn't need any braces at all. Should be done in a few weeks. Look out for a posting from me on that.... As far as sound goes, based just on the first instrument, I'd have to say it's an acquired taste. It has fantastic sustain but sounds kind of "muddy" to me (compared with both a Taylor 814CE and a Martin Dred that I keep around for just such comparisons). I'm not convinced that I like it yet. When I get the second one done, I'll try and make an A/B/C sound comparision recording.... Dave F. |
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